The number of concealed weapons permits issued in Cowlitz County has surged by 300 percent in the last six years, keeping pace with a statewide trend seemingly fueled by a rising fear of criminals and gun control legislation.

Last year, 1,097 more permits were issued in Cowlitz County than in 2006, according to the state Department of Licensing. Statewide, the number of permits has jumped by nearly 64,000. These figures include renewals of the five-year permits. Many other states are reporting a sharp uptick in concealed weapons permits, among them Ohio, Iowa, Florida and Texas.

A spike in concealed weapons permits and handgun sales is common after presidential elections, said Dave Sinkler, who works at the Bob's Sporting Goods gun counter in Longview. But the numbers haven't tapered off the way they usually do.

"I honestly think you will not see this go down for many years. It's a trend that will keep going up," Sinkler said earlier this month.

One explanation is that the continuing bad economy is making criminals more brazen, while at the same time, cuts in law enforcement budgets mean fewer cops on the street and slower police response times.

"I would say people have been awakened to something. Something's clicking right now that they feel the need to protect themselves," said 45-year-old Kelly Vernon of Longview, who got his concealed weapons permit when he was 21 but let it lapse until about five years ago.

Vernon, who thinks graphic crime shows on TV add to the public's fears about victimization, said he wants to protect his family.

"There's comfort in knowing I'm able to do that if I'm needed to," he said last week. "The police aren't going to be there until after it's over."

Longview resident Bob Crisman Jr., 36, got his concealed weapons permit four years ago at the urging of his wife, who'd had one for a decade. Having the permit makes it simpler to transport guns in his car for shooting sports, he said. Without a permit, the gun must be in a locked box in a compartment not accessible from the car's interior.

Also, "There's a lot of riffraff in our neighborhood and it's scary to go out after dark," said Crisman, who resides near the Fred Meyer store. "You hear about hatchet attacks, sword attacks. We had a guy who was nearly beat to death in our alley this winter. ... I don't carry very often, but it's nice to know that I can have that available option. ... I'd just rather have a fighting chance."

Kelso Mayor David Futcher said he obtained a permit and bought a .45-caliber pistol four years ago after seeing news coverage of an angry citizen opening fire at a 2008 city council meeting in Kirkwood, Mo. Two council members, the mayor, the public works director, a police officer and a reporter were killed in the attack.

"I figure my main job is to get home after the meeting to my family, and I wanted to do anything I could to give myself a better chance of doing that," Futcher said earlier this month. "I figure, better safe than sorry."

Permit privileges

Only a small percentage of gun owners apply for concealed weapons permits, and not all intend to carry a loaded pistol on their hip or in their vehicle, Longview police Sgt. Mike Hallowell said in April. A permit in Washington — where it's called a concealed pistol license — requires meeting eligibility requirements (such as being at least age 21, with no felony convictions) and passing a background check.

An advantage of having the permit is the ability to buy a gun at a gun shop without a waiting period, Hallowell said. Also, some gun owners want to be able to transport a loaded gun in their vehicle when they hunt or go to the shooting range, he said.

Pinning down the number of gun owners in Cowlitz County is difficult because, by law, police must destroy gun purchase records within 24 hours of approving them, Hallowell said. Dick Miller, president of the Cowlitz Game & Anglers, said his group has determined the county has at least 20,000 gun owners, and he thinks the number may be as high as 40,000.

Not only are more men carrying pistols for self defense, but a growing number of women are, too. Sinkler said sales of pink-colored guns at Bob's Sporting Goods have increased in the last three or four years. Women often come in with their husbands to buy their first pistol, he said.

National Rifle Association instructor Larry Raglione, who teaches classes on obtaining concealed firearm permits, said he often has between 8 and 12 women in one class of 25 students. The women realize they can level the playing field against a physically stronger male if they're armed, he said.

"A lot more (women) are taking charge," he said. "They don't want to be a victim,"

Raglione, who was a police officer in Oregon for 32 years and now works as a Clark County policeman, believes the increase in permits is due to people becoming aware of threats to their safety. For instance, he said, gang-driven home invasion robberies are on the rise nationwide. And while police are great at investigating crimes, he noted they aren't often able to protect citizens during crimes in progress.

"We can't be everywhere all the time," he said.

The Obama factor

Fears that President Barack Obama will attempt to tighten gun ownership laws are also part of the picture, Miller said.

"A lot of people don't seem to understand the platform of the Democratic party is to reduce gun ownership, like England or Australia," Miller said. "There's all kinds of anti-hunting and anti-gun-owning legal trapeze work going on all the time."

Sinkler doesn't believe Obama's election was the cause of the concealed weapons permit surge. The biggest increase happened between 2006 and 2007, when George W. Bush was still president, he noted. During that time period, Cowlitz County and state numbers of permits more than doubled. Then they continued to climb in ensuing years.

"The (permit) bulge is not because of Obama," he said. "It's because people want to be safe, people want to protect."

Crisman speculated that the 2006 to 2007 increase happened because Bush's second term was wrapping up and people thought Hillary Clinton would be the next president.

People thought "she was going to take our guns, take our kids, take our cars and give 'em to all the poor people. Maybe that played into it," Crisman said.

In the end, they got Obama, but even though he has yet to ask for any gun-control legislation, his Democratic affiliation made him suspect in the eyes of conservative gun owners. Crisman went to a gun shop the day after the 2008 presidential election and said the mood was like a day-after-Thanksgiving sale. The shop was packed.

"Everybody was buying. They were stocking up," he recalled.

Daniel Byrne of Seattle, board president of Washington CeaseFire, a gun-control advocacy group, attributed the sharply rising number of concealed weapons permits to fearmongering by the NRA. The goal is to sell guns — a big chunk of the NRA's funding comes from gun manufacturers, said Byrne, 60.

"They're spreading fear and the sale of guns," he said last week. "It's a vicious circle."

Are gun-carriers really safer?

Is society safer or more dangerous with more people legally packing heat?

According to Byrne, it's more dangerous. The average man or woman doesn't react with Dirty Harry-like reflexes when under attack or facing a burglar, he said.

"They freeze. They get confused. They end up killing their friends or themselves 22 more times than the other person," said Byrne, who thinks the state should make it tougher to get a concealed weapons permit. "If a gun's not around, the odds of people getting killed are much lower."

On the flip side, Raglione said he hasn't observed any problems as a police officer or in the news as a result of people legally carrying guns for a legal purpose. People holding concealed weapons permits are generally law abiding and careful, he said.

Wally Wentz, owner of Gator's Custom Guns in Kelso, contended last week that people becoming aware and responsible for themselves by carrying a gun is good for society. It's also a good deterrent for bad guys, he said.

"There are no jackals that are going to break into the henhouse if they know the hens have all got a rifle," he said.


Editor's note: Bob Crisman Jr. is an employee of The Daily News.

(75) comments

tannerwaterbury
tannerwaterbury

PFFFT! Byrne is an IDIOT: "They freeze. They get confused. They end up killing their friends or themselves 22 more times than the other person," said Byrne, who thinks the state should make it tougher to get a concealed weapons permit. "If a gun's not around, the odds of people getting killed are much lower." Where did he get THOSE statistics? Not in any instance I have heard did a person defending themselves kill their friends or family whilst protecting them(selves).

LordBear
LordBear

didnt see anything in that article..may have missed it but the growing police brutality and power trips also being some factors. people have the right to protect themselves and permits arnt even needed if you open carry. thinking bout getting a permit myself..because it is my right to. although that is like putting a sign on telling cops u have a gun..when it is none of their business unless ur doing something wrong.

hjardo
hjardo

"When no one knows who is armed...everyone is".

Cheney119er
Cheney119er

Where did he get those statisics? How about from simply reading the newspaper or just plain common sense? If your bizarro world makes you believe weapons, that can so easily kill your children, make you safer? Fine. You get exactly what you deserve. The rest of us all have to suffer reading the headlines of your madness.

DW111
DW111

Cheney, I have read several articles lately on how an armed citizen defended their life or home with a gun and no one but the bad guy got hurt. I have carried a firearm for 20 years and not once have my children ever been put in harms way. One thing, if someone tries to hurt me or my family, they had better be immune from high speed lead poisoning. But since liberals are so two sided on issues like this, I have no doubt you have a firearm and would be willing to use it to protect yourself.

Common Sense 24
Common Sense 24

Alot of us have weapons to protect our families when you Democrats break in to take by force what the Government doesn't already steal from us for you deadbeats. As for my children, they have been taught how to handle and shoot guns. They know they are not toys. They know how to break them down and clean them. It is better for children to know about firearms than to be afraid of something they don't understand. You can't stop a childs curiousity, you can teach them safety.

WildBillGT
WildBillGT

Distorted facts are all they have Tannerwaterbury, I have included a link that shows actual undistorted statistics, you can find your answer there, Gary Kleck, Florida criminology professor and author of "Point Blank" and a self described liberal democrat, has gathered the most comprehensive study on the matter and thankfully he kept an objective mind and did not distort his findings like some have, The gun control crowd has distorted almost every arguement they have and would call a fact...

WildBillGT
WildBillGT

Then I forget the link!!

http://www.ammoland.com/2012/05/01/gun-facts-version-6-1/#axzz1zNhBjyDi

OldIrish
OldIrish

Tanner, I question that statistic as well but you know how it goes: on hot issues both sides are crafty with statistics and rely on (often irrational) fear to drum-up continued support. The anti-gun crowd wants us to be afraid of anyone with a gun. The gun industry/NRA (same thing, really) wants us to to be afraid of Democrats!

MrChinook
MrChinook

With more sane people armed, the crazies will get off fewer shots!

justthefacts
justthefacts

The statistics he quoted are not for incidents while defending yourself. They are for homicides involving guns. 22 times more family and friends die of homicide (by firearm) than bad guys by justifiable homicide. The data is available on the FBI web site.

RiverRat57
RiverRat57

I have had my WA CPL since '81, my son got his last year, and my wife FINALLY got hers this year, now to work on my daughter. I always carry, either concealed or sometimes open, always a .45, they don't shrink. I have this in front of my house, http://www.readytodefend.com/frontsight/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=38&products_id=94 just to make sure the bad guys know what awaits them. Carry always & shoot straight.

Willbill
Willbill

“According to Byrne, it's more dangerous.”

FALSE!

Our right to Keep and BEAR arms have been increasing restored over last several years and more citizens are now free to carry firearms in more places since the year 1900. Yet, homicides, including homicides with firearms, as well as all other violent crime have been decreasing since 2006.

Preliminary data from 2011 shows all Violent Crime was down 6.4%, Murder down 5.7%, Rape down 5.1%, Robbery down 7.7%, and Aggravated Assault down 5.9%.

OldIrish
OldIrish

Are you asserting or merely implying a direct connection between the two? I'm asking, not arguing.

Real American
Real American

Read John Lott's book. More Guns, Less Crime. He is another liberal who when starting to do research for writing this book, found that extreme gun control was not the answer.

My2cents
My2cents

"An armed society is a polite society."

John P Wilson
John P Wilson

Good! The Liberals have created an anti-gun atmosphere to the regular, law abiding citizen and the criminals could care less, they will obtain a weapon regardless. Now that citizens are becoming bold and stepping up, realizing that they have a RIGHT to carry protection and telling the whining liberal to get lost, that they WILL protect themselves and dismiss the liberal nonsense, the criminal element will go elsewhere to a more liberal city and victimize them and not us!

William
William

People like Byme gets paid to said stupid things. They don't care about you or your family and friends. The more they try to deny our rights, the more stupid they become. They didn't even try to educate people on how to use or take care of your own guns. They defend the criminals, and prefer your death instead.
Owning and carrying a gun is our constitutional right and it doesn't interfere with any other rights, so swallow it!

electriczipper
electriczipper

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

electriczipper
electriczipper

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

electriczipper
electriczipper

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------------

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
------------------------------

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

electriczipper
electriczipper

Switzerland issues every household a gun. Switzerland's government trains every adult they issue a rifle. Switzerland has the lowest gun related crime rate in the world.
It's a no brainer! Don't let our government waste millions of tax dollars on an effort to make all law abiding citizens an easy Target.

This shortened version is derived from an email I received, and was asked to pass along.

justanotherguy
justanotherguy

This is why Dr. Phil has a job. You don't just hand the keys to your car to someone who has
never driven before. The best gun control is education and remember you're never too old or too good to be asked the simple safety questions. Accidents with firearms, concealed or not, are born of complacency and/or ignorance. It's our American right to carry firearms and it's our American responsibility to know how to handle them.

GoneFishing
GoneFishing

That reminds me that I need to get mine renewed. Thanks TDN for the reminder!!!

TIGER
TIGER

I believe every adult should be able to own a gun as long as they are normal, and I also think everyone that buys their first gun should have proper training on the use, and safety of thier first gun purchase. Many buy a gun, and automaticly become an expert with its use! Seriously, we live in an age where all the bad guys already have a gun, and plan to use it. What would you do if one of them pull a gun, and ask for what you have on you. At least you may have a fighting chance to live!

TIGER
TIGER

Today, our White House has planned to have the United Nations write a International law for the control of all guns held by the public, and Sec. of State Hillary Clinton has worked with the UN to make these laws formal, and then Obama has to convince only the Senate to vote for the UN to have control, or Obama may just write another "Executive Order", and bypass the United States Congress entirely with one strike of the pen! This sounds outlandish, but it is happening as I write this!

TIGER
TIGER

At work one day I was listening at two other employees talking about food, and guns. One belonged to a religion that tells them to store 1 years worth of food. The other second employee asked the first if he had any guns, he said he don't believe in guns. the second then said, Well, all I have to do is come to you're house, and kill you, and you're family, then I would have a years food to use. A few months latter, I asked the one with the food if he has a gun yet. He said he has a couple guns!

TIGER
TIGER

In Chicago today, there are a dozen, or more killings each night without any sign of stopping. People, usually the younger, have to much time on their hands to kill (no pun intended). The Government says they can't work, they have all kinds of games that makes you kill everything in sight, TV, and music tells them to kill so what do you think will happen when they get a gun, and without teaching, and sensitivity to death has disapeared, what do you think they will do with a gun!

electriczipper
electriczipper

Every adult has the responsibly to make sure the next generation has a Strong moral compass to guide them to not misuse firearms. The increase in senseless shootings is proof of the wrong it is of not encouraging, and praising the young when they do good, and the total insanity of removing the paddle from schools, and society. Children need to be able to learn how to handle the hurt and humility of when they've been wronged, and they will be, it's not a perfect world. Also to handle the

electriczipper
electriczipper

Also to handle the hurt, and humility of being disciplined when they've wronged. This so they don't just take a life because they do not know how to handle their pain, and humiliation having never having learned how to deal with it properly. Adults should get the kids involved with something. A non violent religion is affordable if the cost of scouts or the Y is stopping parents from getting them into something. Adults should participate also I know it's hard I've been pretty negligent myself.

electriczipper
electriczipper

Does anyone know if the upcoming expulsion of the military from the pentagon is in anyway a preparation for the signing of the U.N. treaty to ban private ownership of small arms, or not? The treaty President Obama's Secretary of State Hillary R. Clinton is negotiating for President Obama with the U.N., skirting around Congress, and the American public to accomplish their goal, not the American public's.

DW111
DW111

Hmm, looks like the guns rights advocates outnumber the gun control crowd commenting on this article about 10 to one. I know Cowblitz county leans somewhat left, but knowing a good many of us have permits and are trained in gun control is comforting. A person of liberal tendencies recently asked me what I thought of gun control. I replied "The ability to hit your target." The discussion did not continue from there.

OldIrish
OldIrish

"The ability to hit your target" ? The discussion ended because the other person obviously knew what he was dealing with. As a pro-gun Dem I can tell you that *that* sort of remark is *exactly* what fuels the fires of the anti-gun crowd. Trust me on this. If you want to reduce anti-gun sentiment give, if you can, sensible answers and discussion, and keep the inflammatory remarks to yourself. And take the "Don't honk, I'm reloading" bumper sticker off your car. It doesn't help the cause.

DW111
DW111

Look Irish, I'm glad your a pro-gun Dem, but gun rights will always be a hot topic. Humans are a flawed species and one of the only few on the planet that kill each other for little or no reason. I will defend my life, family, property and more importantly my country with deadly force! I will vote conservative, I will shoot guns for sport, eat red meat in copious amounts, drink beer, smoke cigars & drive trucks until the government takes it all away, from my "cold dead hands." - Charlton Heston

OldIrish
OldIrish

I'll defend life with deadly force and support constitutional rights as well, and gladly. Red meat, trucks, and beer drinking have nothing to do with the subject at hand but if you believe reactionary commentary helps support your position or actually helps the pro-gun cause then, by all means, carry on.

theyounggeneration
theyounggeneration

Factcheck.org has already disproved that the UN treaty is a ban on guns for private citizens as a matter of fact the only thing they have talked about limiting is the importation and exportation of certain firearms. Please stop listening to the NRA and start doing some research that does not involve reading a fake email sent out to try and put heat on Obama. Here is the link to the fact check article. http://factcheck.org/2012/06/still-no-international-gun-ban-treaty

zeke
zeke

Bob, and the folks at TDN its called a concealed Pistol Permit, not a concealed weapons.
There is a diference !

kl2297
kl2297

I have a permit, & sometimes carry it concealed, one of those rather have it & never need it than need it & not have things.
The comment that puzzles me is the one about being able to hit what you're shooting at... In order for the threat to be enough for me to drop the hammer they would have to be close enough that it wouldn't take a marksman to hit them.
& Bryne is a liberal MORON. Hard to believe anyone even takes these clowns seriously .

BRET HERE
BRET HERE

And everyone knows Factcheck can see into the Future....

theyounggeneration
theyounggeneration

Clearly seeing into the future is not possible without Doc Brown... you just took a point that I had and tried to refute it by refering to something that was not relevent to my post. I did not say one word about the future. I was trying to make a point that president obama has not said one word about gun control since he has been in office, so it is unfair to read a fake email sent out by the NRA and take that as evidence against a guy that they are trying to push out of office.

electriczipper
electriczipper

Hi theyounggeneration :), Is factcheck.org another one of them supposedly infallible fact sights like snopes was thought to be at one time? "The only thing they have talked about limiting is the importation and exportation of certain firearms"One step at a time. If true it is just another inch in an endless pursuit of inches :). Stop listening to the NRA you say? That is exactly what they want, and they are succeeding in their pursuit to divide, and discredit the NRA. --

electriczipper
electriczipper

-- Look how they've possibly gotten you convinced to give them a little bit to be reasonable, and compromising with them ;). They will never stop in their pursuit of taking away your gun rights. Thank you for the email address of fact check, I've never heard of them before, I appreciate it. As far as putting the heat on Obama goes, he can do it all by himself he doesn't need my help :). Really does anyone believe he was born in this country? All the requested info on that would have been --

electriczipper
electriczipper

-- have been upfront, and center darn fast back when he was first campaigning for President if it were true that he'd been born in the US. Don't let their smoke fool you. His being a member of the democratic party doesn't help either. It being the party to which Bill Clinton belongs to. The same party Bill Clinton belonged to back when he was president, and signed into law the legislation that removed the regulations on banks that were put into place after the great stock market crash of 1929.--

electriczipper
electriczipper

-Which started the whole economic nightmare the world is living with today. You know the nightmare I'm referring to? The one that has stressed alot of people to early death, and even suicide. It was a great party before it was infiltrated, and destroyed from within. Don't get me wrong though, I'm no Republican either. I'm still looking for the party that represents the people, and not extremists on the left or the right. I do know that the party candidate I vote for will be the one that suppor--

electriczipper
electriczipper

--supports the second amendment, and the constitution, or the lesser of two evils if that is the only choices the powers that be allow us to have ;).

OldIrish I like the bumper stickers,they're humorous :). Unfortunately you're probably right about things like that scaring the people that have already been manipulated into being scared by media peddlers that abuse their power, and try to manipulate public opinion to further their political goals rather than just reporting the news for profit.

theyounggeneration
theyounggeneration

Listen, I am a strong supporter of the second ammendment and I was only trying to make a point about a fake viral email and how the NRA sent it out to get people to think Obama has been trying to take away our guns. He has done no such thing since being in office. Even if he wants to he will not attemp it because it is a battle he knows he will lose. I mean we love our guns. But to just assume that because the UN is talking about guns that our own use of them is scarily threatened is a joke.

electriczipper
electriczipper

Great to hear, I wasn't quite sure which way you were leaning on this :). I still stand with the opinion that it is just another inch in an endless pursuit of inches, and it's really not a joke.

Fast, and furious smells like a bungled attempt at creating false evidence for the purpose of furthering firearms control. What else could it be?

OldIrish
OldIrish

Good, but unneccessary, stump speech, Electric. Getting back to guns. As I said earlier, both sides rely on fear to drum up continued support and remain relevant. Anyone not recognizing that has their head in the sand, IMHO. Manipulation? Yes. On both sides. I, for one, am tired of being manipulated by both the anti-gun crowd and the NRA.

electriczipper
electriczipper

OldIrish I'm not sure it was unnecessary. It may be all tied together, and gun control just a piece of the equation, and I don't know how many people are aware of that possibility, and the history up till the present. Were you aware of B.C.s deregulation of the US banking system, and do you remember the B.C. administrations fight for, and gains at more gun control? If Mitt wins this election, and the GOP does the same old thing, Hillary maybe the pres in 2016 :(. Give that one some thought. :)

electriczipper
electriczipper

" Manipulation? Yes. On both sides. I, for one, am tired of being manipulated by both the anti-gun crowd and the NRA."

Me to! But I have to side with the NRA as without the second amendment the other amendments, and the bill of rights will disappear.

DW111
DW111

Irish, stop with the "stay on the topic" stuff. Once they get our guns, then they do take the red meat, beer, cigars and anything else they think is bad for us. And why do you think you are being manipulated? Your a man, fend for yourself and tune out the radicals on the left.

OldIrish
OldIrish

Sorry, DW, my level of fear/paranoia/apprehension/suspicion/whatever doesn't rise as high as yours :-).

DW111
DW111

I would say it's more like concern. Let us know how you feel when Progressive Liberals have completely destroyed our freedoms. I'm gonna shag another beer and toke on a fine stogie. ....while I still can. :)

electriczipper
electriczipper

Oh! I forgot "Fast and Furious" or do I not need to mention it at all?

PS Paul
PS Paul

I noticed someone mentioned nightly killings in Chicago. The same Chicago where law abiding citizens are generally NOT allowed carry permits. Seems like only criminals have guns in Chicago. I think therein is a real-life example of how misdirected and emotionally driven, illogical gun-control measures have been a disaster. Still, the truth and facts will NOT stop the anti-gun zealots from still trying. I don't think it's working there.....

PS Paul
PS Paul

Further, the acts of criminals/lowlifes/murderers/gangsters who use guns illegally is NEVER reason to prevent the responsible and law abiding from owning and carrying guns. Too bad the facts and logic/reason have absolutely NOTHING to do with reasons politicians want to take away the right for citizenry to legally own and carry firearms. Fear THEM. We are a society and country based on indiviual rights, NOT a collective! Socialism and socialist dictators make gun owners their FIRST targets

PS Paul
PS Paul

I believe Ben Franklin said it better than just about anyone in history: (to paraphrase) "Those who would surrender freedoms and liberty in exchange for safety and security deserve neither freedom nor liberty". So I guess the divide will likely stand for a long time. Those who believe in responsible gun ownership and individual freedoms and those who believe in disarming the populace and having our government make decisions for us. Simple as that. China is the place for that thinking.

PS Paul
PS Paul

I really have to question what sort of man/woman/person would choose to expect police to take care of them and the safety of their family instead of taking responsibility for the safety of their property and family by themselves. I believe those who do not take the responsibility to protect their property and family themselves from criminals and lowlifes is someone who should not consider having a family or owning property. With gun ownership comes responsibility. I take that responsibility.

OldIrish
OldIrish

Paul I agree with most everything you've said. I'll only add that (as we all know) none of our rights are 100% absolute. Let's face it, there are some people who shouldn't be allowed to own guns any more than they should be allowed to drive a car. I know some such people personally. Some form(s) of sensible gun control is required. Yes, with gun ownership (or any other right) comes responsibilty. Not all gun owners take that responsibilty seriously and they're dangerous

electriczipper
electriczipper

"I'll only add that (as we all know) none of our rights are 100% absolute." Unless we protect them.
Just my 2 cents OldIrish :).

OldIrish
OldIrish

Yes, rights need to be vigorously defended, I agree. Still, though, they're not absolute :-)

JCookie
JCookie

No right is absolute? Like due process, unreasonable search and seizure, freedom of the press, right to bear arms? You think that they shouldn't be absolute?? how is it that so many people seem to want more and more regulations because they "think" something that goes against the principals of which this nation was established. none of which would have happend had our for fathers lived in they same fear that I see so many live in today. soon people will want it to be mandatory to get a flu shot

electriczipper
electriczipper

Isn't it kind of surprising how after relentless exposure to the abnormal thinking of the gun control crowd it begins to erode the thinking of normal society. None of the gun control crowd should even hold public office. It's obvious their thinking is deviating from the norm, and no matter if their abnormal thinking is purely psychological or neurological in origin they are mentally unfit to be in such a position no matter how intelligent they are. They're talking madness. Just my 2cents. ;)

OldIrish
OldIrish

So, when it comes to political office, there's no room for opposing viewpoints? Gun control advocates don't deserve representation? Doesn't sound very American or democratic to me. Some degree of gun control is perfectly reasonable. I'm positively pro-gun, but I certainly don't want criminals, convicted felons, and the mentally unfit to own guns. How about you? I don't want people who are irresponsible and unsafe to own guns, do you? How does this make me abnormal and unfit for public office?

electriczipper
electriczipper

There is room for opposing view points. Why not? Gun control zealots, do deserve representation, by a legal guardian in severe cases :). Their view point on gun control should never be given consideration. There are 56 million reasons from the 20th century alone. It's historically documented madness. When they are elected to public office, and then untruthfully swear to uphold the law, and the constitution, then refuse to do this to further their subversive agenda, it is criminal if not treason.--

electriczipper
electriczipper

--"Some degree of gun control is perfectly reasonable. I'm positively pro-gun, but I certainly don't want criminals, convicted felons, and the mentally unfit to own guns. How about you?" There are laws on the books now that cover all these concerns, but a number of these are among the laws that the elected subversives refuse to enforce so as to further their disarming of the american people agenda. I say enforce the laws that are on the books already! ;)

electriczipper
electriczipper

"I don't want people who are irresponsible and unsafe to own guns, do you? How does this make me abnormal and unfit for public office?"

I don't want them to own guns either, but till they foul up they are justly protected by the law. I've no idea as to how you've misinterpreted this to get you to question how you may be abnormal or unfit for public office.

electriczipper
electriczipper

I've no idea as to how you've misinterpreted this to get you to question how you may be abnormal or unfit for public office.

Old Irish I apologize for yankin your chain ;). The post you were replying to was a bit questionable at the least. :)

electriczipper
electriczipper

Is this better? Isn't it kind of surprising how after relentless exposure to the dangerous thinking of the gun control crowd it begins to erode the thinking of normal society. None of the gun control crowd should hold public office if they refuse to enforce the laws, and uphold the constitution they swore to uphold. If their opinion interferes with that then are they not mentally unfit to hold such a position no matter how intelligent they are? They're peddling subversion. Just my 2cents. ;)

electriczipper
electriczipper

Concerning the first draft, It was sloppy of me to so hurriedly post it, and doing so definitely showed my lack of formal education, besides I was tired ;).

OldIrish
OldIrish

None of the rights you've mentioned is absolute. For example, freedom of speech does not allow you to incite riot. Or, if you're a felon, many of your rights are stripped with most people agreeing that that's fitting and proper. "reasonable" search and seizure is constantly debated, defined, and refined. Virtually since day one individual states and/or municipalities have enacted their forms of gun control, rules regarding freedom of assembly, etc....some more rational than others.

electriczipper
electriczipper

Erosion.

grannyward
grannyward

Does anyone have information on when and where the next 32 state permit class will be held in Longview/Kelso? I will be there.

DW111
DW111

Well, now with the tragedy in Colorado, I'm sure all the gun control nut jobs will be out in force. Can't wait to see how this plays out.

DW111
DW111

Also, if only one or two citizens in Colorado would have had a gun and protect themselves and possibly save the lives of many people. But no. It's because of people like that monster, that people like me carry guns.

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